Wednesday, August 24, 2005

Won't Have This In The U.S.

...but in the U.K. they're getting serious about terrorism. This article describes the U.K.'s position on acts of hate including, but not limited to

Cannot foment, justify, glorify terrorist violence in furtherance of particular
beliefs


You see, in the U.S. we have this freedom of speech thing that may get in the way of such acts leading to deportation or exclusion.

Also,

Individuals who do the above by any means or medium are caught by the
legislation, including:
- writing, producing, publishing or distributing
material;
- public speaking including preaching
- running a website
-
using a position of responsibility such as teacher, community or youth leader


At least there is someone out there who is taking these terrorists semi-seriously.

Just an observation.

20 Comments:

At 9:39 PM, Blogger Sir Loin of Beef said...

I wonder. It seems to me that they aren't really getting serious about the root of terrorism so much as they are the symptoms of terrorism. Getting tough against guys who preach it is not going to stop it. In fact, it has the potential to make it worse. I'm not really sure what the answer is, but this isn't it.

Countries need to address why this hateful rhetoric comes about, then strive to erradicate the cause, not the effects.

Anyway... just rambling.

 
At 10:49 PM, Blogger TripleNeckSteel said...

You're right- you are just rambling.

The root cause is Islam- the jihad began long before there was any wetern imperialism, let alone the WoT.

 
At 6:06 AM, Blogger Sir Loin of Beef said...

Well, Tripleneck, Islam is not a cause. Islam is a religion, like any other. It is not the cause of anything. If a man is full of hate, he is going to interpret the world around him in hateful terms. He will draw out hateful passages from the books he reads and use them to further his own hateful aims. The book itself does not create the hate.

The bible is filled with many hateful and terrible passages. Some have been used to justify hate and violence. It depends on who is reading it.

If this is clear, then where do you think the hate really comes from?

 
At 12:45 AM, Blogger RightWingRocker said...

So what is the cause, Beef?

You totally missed what Triple was saying.

If you say the cause isn't Islam and people taking it too seriously, what exactly is the cause?

RWR

 
At 8:58 AM, Blogger Sir Loin of Beef said...

I in no way missed what Trip was saying. He said the root cause was Islam. I then rebutted, saying that it was not the cause, but only a tool used by hate mongers.

Now, to answer your question. What causes hate and terrorism? I would say that there are many reasons that usually come together to form such hatred and aggressiveness. We could even look at our own terrorists and gain some insight.

The Klu Klux Klan was and is arguably a terrorist organization. They existed in order to terrify and kill black people in the south. They used the bible as one means of justifying their actions, but their hatred was not created by this book. It was created by humiliating defeat in the Civil War. It was created by one force coming in and changing their way of life. It was created by a moral force coming in and telling them that their way of life was morally reprehensible. It was created by poverty. These were all seeds that created a growing hate within many southern men. The result was that they created a scapegoat for their aggressions: the black man.

Now, we cannot equate the two situations in all ways, but the example is one that should be given some thought, for the West in relation to the Middle East, for better or worse, is much like the North was to the South during the Civil War era.

 
At 9:00 AM, Blogger Sir Loin of Beef said...

And I will just add, that another facet of southern hate was that a group whom they viewed to be inferior was suddenly made to be their equals. In many ways this is how western ideas are viewed by some Muslims. Our ideas are inferior to them. When they are shoved down their throat, many will become resistant and angry...

 
At 10:33 AM, Blogger RightWingRocker said...

A good clarification on your position, Beef. I do, however, agree with Triple on this one more than you.

However, your analogy to the KKK is an excellent one, save the idea that poverty causes hate. Most of the founders of the KKK were very wealthy people.

The Klu Klux Klan was and is arguably a terrorist organization.

I agree with you almost completely on this statement, but you'd have to drop the word "arguably" to agree with me completely.

So is the point of your comment that somewhere along the line a defeat on some level is what caused these people to hate freedom and free people?

RWR

 
At 11:09 AM, Blogger Sir Loin of Beef said...

Before I clarify my position, I would like to know why you think Islam is the root cause. As you say, you agree with Trip more than me, so please support your position!

Please tell me how a religion creates terrorism.

 
At 11:21 AM, Blogger Sir Loin of Beef said...

Now, to clarify my position.

The imposition of foreign ideologies, economic systems, and socio-political ideas can create much anger, and eventually hatred. Being poor carries with it the immediate resentment of the rich. Shame and humiliation are definitely causes for anger/hate/military justification. The Third Reich of Germany rose out of the ashes of former humiliations. Evil men then used these seeds that existed within the people to foster further hateful feelings and militaristic goals. And, yes, religion was used as a tool to inspire the people.

This is the case with Islam. Religion in and of itself is harmless. It is what people do with it and how they interpret it that causes trouble.

 
At 4:17 AM, Blogger RightWingRocker said...

The imposition of foreign ideologies, economic systems, and socio-political ideas can create much anger, and eventually hatred.

Not inaccurate at all ... Just look at the way the liberals have reacted to the (however gradual) re-institution of the Constitution in America ...

Being poor carries with it the immediate resentment of the rich.

Umm ... exactly how do you make this claim? I'm poor, and so are many of my friends. NONE of us resent the rich. We all have rich friends, who are just as close to us as their poor counterparts.

When you say this sort of thing, you are simply trumpeting the materialistic view of the typical Marxist, and you put your credibility in the toilet.

RWR

 
At 8:46 AM, Blogger Sir Loin of Beef said...

I don't really understand how we were talking about Marxism or liberalism in America. I cease to understand how you turn everything I say into this sort of ridiculous channel of rhetoric. We were talking about terrorism and the idea of Islam as a cause for terrorism. You did not address a single iota of my message on this score, but rather chose to derail the conversation into your all-too-familiar "liberals are dumb asses" spew.

You once again agree with me when you say that I am right about ideologies being impressed onto foreign peoples, yet you still can't keep from derailing the topic.

You have a one track mind. There seems to be no real point in talking to you about anything, because all you can do is nod your bobble-head long enough for the rhetoric to build up within your craw then come vomiting out of you.

I think I will cease even trying to make points with you. And please don't think this is because of your superiour arguing skills. It is because you can't see anything unless it falls within the scope of your rhetorical blinders.

 
At 11:46 PM, Blogger RightWingRocker said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 11:57 PM, Blogger RightWingRocker said...

My point was clear, and in response to your comment, which was cited.

Imposing the Constitution on people who have happily trounced on it does exactly what you said, and being poor does not make you resentful of wealthy people.

What part of that don't you understand?

If you don't get it, then my winning the argument had nothing to do with my superior debate skills.

RWR

 
At 12:50 AM, Blogger TripleNeckSteel said...

Rocker,

Ignore this dolt.

He's part of the moral-equivalency crowd, and arguing with them is like arguing with a five-year old- except that the five-year old will eventually learn.

Loin,

Your hollow contentions about the "root causes" of terrorism, and the fundamental equivalence of religions together signify nothing so much as your typically uninformed liberal's egocentrism- you think all religions are equal in intent and value, so therefore Muslims and everyone else must also.

Wrong.

For a variety of reasons- which in the interest of brevity (and not wasting time schooling yet another ignorant twit) I'll just sketch out, here is why Islam is the problem:

Islam, unlike any other major religion, specifically requires the hatred-- and yes, killing-- of non-believers. Go find whatever passages of the old testament you think are belligerent or bellicose, and I will be wating with my reply that unlike Judeo-Christian culture, Islam has never undergone what we xenophobic rednecks refer to as "The Enlightenment"- indeed, Islam strictly forbids the kind of curiosity and examinations that made the enlightenment possible.

As for terrorism, when you try to invoke the spectre of so-called "Christian" terrorists (assuming you mean Timmy McVeigh or Eric Rudolph), you deliberately leave one fact out- neither were they inspired by the teachings of Christ, nor do they or their ideologies enjoy any measure of support from mainstream Judaism or Christianity. In fact, they are both soundly rebuked and denounced by Jews and Christians.

Similarly disappointing for you, poverty isn't really one of the factors in the rise of Islamic terrorism, either- a little phenomenon called "National Socialism" was one of the first impeti of Islamic terror- the grand mufti of Jerusalem was a close friend and ally of good ol' Adolph Hitler, and the rulers of the time- particularly those of Iraq- modeled their regimes after Hitler's. Michel Aflac, the founder of the Ba'ath movement, was also an open admirer of Hitler. You can frequently hear the "elected" "officials" and "clerics" of "Palestine" urge their followers to "finish Hitler's good work".

Here's a little quote from the nice people at Harvard, who were kind enough to lend their considerable reputation to the above-linked study:

"In the past, we heard people refer to the strong link between terrorism and poverty, but in fact when you look at the data, it's not there. This is true not only for events of international terrorism, as previous studies have shown, but perhaps more surprisingly also for the overall level of terrorism, both of domestic and of foreign origin,"

You seem marginally capable of serious thought- you should drop the silly emotionalism, and do some reading. Try the likes of the Koran, Sunna, and Hadiths.

Then go read Ibn Warraq, Bernard Lewis, Nonie Darwish, Daniel Pipes, Bat Ye'or, Robert Spencer, and any other serious scholar of Islam, Islamic jurisprudence, and Middle Eastern history-- then try and tell me Islam isn't a totalitarian "total prescription for life" to be crushed like any other totalitarian nightmare.

Right now, all you're telling me is that you don't know shit from shine-ola.

 
At 12:52 AM, Blogger TripleNeckSteel said...

Damn-

Here's the link to the Koran verses I wanted to cite.

http://www.angelfire.com/moon/yoelnatan/koranwarpassages.htm

 
At 12:54 AM, Blogger TripleNeckSteel said...

Dammit! Fucking Blogger software!

Here's the link.

http://twu.net/bwt

 
At 11:13 AM, Blogger Sir Loin of Beef said...

There are plenty of laws in the bible that people do not follow. They choose not to. There are likewise passages in the Islamic holy book that do not need to be followed. It is a choice. Religion is not a cause. Words on a page do not cause war or terrorism. People choose to commit these acts.

Just as the Klu Klux Klan used biblical justification for their actions, so too do terrorists. And your comment about main stream christians has nothing do to with anything, as mainstream muslims do not believe in terrorism either.

You guys come at everything you say with preconceived beliefs that taint your abilility to see things for what they really are.

You are right to say I am capable of intellectual thought. I do not need to cite my credentials or my IQ or how much education I have had in these matters. You either agree or you don't. You don't. Fair enough. End of debate.

 
At 11:43 AM, Blogger RightWingRocker said...

(Cranking up the great QUEEN classic ...)

ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST
ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST

Sorry for the gloating ... I just couldn't resist.

RWR

 
At 7:57 AM, Blogger Sir Loin of Beef said...

I don't even know what you are gloating over. Do you actually think you won this debate? LOL

Think what you want. I have merely concluded that it is foolish to argue with fools. Thanks for that lesson, anyway.

 
At 9:41 AM, Blogger Ol' BC said...

That was a good exchange!!

 

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